Digital Download is one my favourite podcasts and I recommend it to anyone who works in PR and digital comms. Paul ‘gets’ the digital space and is happy to dig in deep with his guests on relevant topics and issues.
Key focus of my interview with Paul was around the strategic use of content marketing for PR and communications purposes, and how it can deepen the connection your brand has with customers and grow your influence.
(N.B. transcription of the interview is published below if you’d prefer to read)
Here’s what is discussed in this episode:
- How content marketing for PR differs from inbound marketing
- Whether the communications industry misunderstands content marketing
- How different disciplines look at content marketing in different ways
- How content can help build reputation, trust and influence
- How PR and inbound marketing measure the same activity differently
- Whether sales funnels are still relevant
- Why other people’s opinions matter more than corporate content
- How content marketing for PR can help a brand to differentiate itself
- What the four types of content for public relations are
- How you can make company news interesting
- Whether companies are nervous about publishing combative content
- Where the future of the public relations industry lies
- Why ongoing content marketing is the base level for great creative campaigns
TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERVIEW
Trevor Young: When you see an organisation that really has what I’d call a PR mindset, they’re just so different than anyone else because they often don’t have to advertise much. That’s the beauty, because they’re already known and trusted, and the content marketing for PR I believe can help differentiate your brand, stand out a bit more, can make you look a little different than just churning out the same stuff.
Paul Sutton: Trevor Young is a highly experienced communication strategist from Melbourne who specialises in content marketing. He’s a huge believer in the power of public relations and in the major role that content marketing has to play in the future of the industry. The sales and marketing process has changed dramatically in the last few years as trust has declined and we’ve become sick of being sold to when we’re on Facebook. Trevor believes we’re moving back towards more personal forms of marketing.
Trevor Young: How can we make ourselves more open, more transparent? How can we connect more deeply with the people who matter most to us? I’m not saying the sales funnel’s dead, but I just think it’s… is it losing relevance? Potentially. And I just think there’s more to it. I think we just look at things in too much of a one dimensional way when it’s not. It’s multidimensional and it’s messy.
Paul Sutton: On today’s show, Trevor and I talk about how content marketing was hijacked by inbound marketers and about why public relations should steal it back.
Voice-over introduction: This is Digital Download, the podcast that explores the latest thinking in digital communications, PR and social media. Here’s your host, Paul Sutton.
Paul Sutton: Now we’re going to talk about something that I know is close to your heart and you have actually just released a book about this, which is content marketing for public relations or how to use content marketing specifically for public relations in communications. That’s right?
Trevor Young: That’s absolutely correct. Very close to my heart, that one.
Paul Sutton: So where did the idea for the book come about? I mean, why did you write it in the first place?
Trevor Young: I’ve sort of been blogging since 2007 and been neck deep into this side of things and I guess coming from an ex journalism background anyway. So I’ve always been doing content, telling stories, doing all that sort of stuff. But it was really, I guess, once content started to… It became within the realm of anyone, anyone can become their own media channel. But I just felt that the whole conversation around content and content marketing is kind of being hijacked a bit by the inbound marketing fraternity.
And I mean, that’s fine. Absolutely. But not everyone requires, kind of like inbound marketing, uses a sales funnel, needs loads of traffic to their website via search engines and all of that sort of stuff. And inbound marketing is very much a bit of a process. And I felt that there was a lot more to content, and companies and organisations of all sizes can use content in a different way. So what I’ve basically done in short is look at content marketing through a PR lens and also acknowledging that, whether you’re a business, big or small, you’re a government agency, you’re a micro business, a social enterprise, or a community nonprofit, you can still use content to help communicate directly with the people who matter most to the success of your business or your cause or your issue, if you are a nonprofit.
Paul Sutton: Do you think there is perhaps a bit of a misunderstanding among the PR or comms industries about content marketing and the role it can or does play?
Trevor Young: Yeah, I think, well, I think there is, it’s just there’s so much information. And I think the part of where I’ve struggled is I’ve tried to consume all this information and when it became time to… This book sort of percolated in my head for quite some time and I felt that yes, people are really confused. A lot of my clients and a lot of people who I deal with are actually heads of PR and they’re in charge of content marketing. It’s not necessarily the head of marketing has got anything to do with content. So I think to apply these, this is the way it’s done and apply those rules shouldn’t really be the case.
I mean, obviously there’s truisms like know your audience and create content that’s of interest and relevance to your desired target groups who you’re trying to reach out and communicate with. But from then on, it’s a pretty open slather I think. And I think that yeah, people were getting confused. I have one case where a client of mine, and before I sort of did something with her and she’s the head of PR for a very, very big brand in Australia. And she had her, there was two ad agencies, the PR firm, the social media, the SEO firm, and even a content marketing firm, which they had nothing to do with.
But all of those other agencies including, I think SEO, they’re all pitching content ideas. And I said to her, “You’ve got to to develop your own strategy, take control of it because otherwise you’re just going to go off course really quickly and nothing will ever happen.” And that was probably the real light bulb for me. And I’d started to hear that a fair bit, is that because the lines have blurred across all of these agencies, what do you do if your PR is your thing?
And do you just gravitate to what someone else is doing in another area. I mean, the way ad agencies look at content is way different than what PR people look at content. And then a lot of the inbound marketing stuff is very utility-based, very how to educational, but there’s a lot more to do with content, like taking people behind the scenes or taking a thought, leadership positioning and that sort of thing, that I think is the opportunity for the PR industry.
Paul Sutton: Yeah. So coming onto that then, so why do you think PR should perhaps own content or do you think PR should own content marketing or you just, or are you just kind of, is it there is a dual use but you think PR isn’t using it enough? I mean, what’s your view on that?
Trevor Young: Yeah. I’m not sure it’s about owning, but they… Well, I certainly think that in any order organisation within the PR function, yes, content probably should be the kicker for them. It should be the… I call what I do content-driven communications. So it’s communications broadly, but it starts with content and owned media. That’s the starting point. So on one hand, yes, I believe PR and comms should have that owned media mindset and built from there.
That doesn’t mean they can’t do more marketing style content elsewhere within an organisation. And one thing that’s a theme throughout the book is about adopting your own philosophy. And it started around content and social media, but really it’s around comms and marketing generally. And because every company and organisation is unique with its own goals. And if you haven’t got that sort of philosophy of where you want to be and how you think about these things, it’s very easy to go, you’ll end up just jumping on every shiny new tool in an attempt to find a silver bullet solution, which we know doesn’t exist.
And I think the thing with PR… So that philosophy, if you are probably more of a PR type organisation versus one that’s more marketing driven, then you’ll probably gravitate more to the content that I talk about in the book. I think now that PR have got the tools to do what we always should be doing. So I mean, I’ve been in the game for, cough, cough, three decades and we used to do videos and we used to do newsletters and stuff like that.
But the cost of doing those things and the time lag in doing it, videos were 50, 60, 70 grand a pop. So you hardly did them. So we now have the tools to do what PR should always have done and that’s communicate and tell stories. And now we’ve just got them. So that to me is a golden era for our industry.
Paul Sutton: What do you think the difference is between then the PR use of content marketing and the typical sort of inbound marketing approach, which you do see a lot of talk about?
Trevor Young: Yeah. Yeah. And there is crossover.
Paul Sutton: There is, very much. What are the similarities and what are the differences in your mind?
Trevor Young: Yeah, well, I did a whole chapter on this one. It was probably the hardest chapter to do because obviously there’s a lot of nuance around it. So explaining what is quite conceptual was challenging. But I think I got there in the end. But I think when you look at PR, we’re about building recognition, reputation, relevance, building relationships with people, all that side of things. And if we can do content that helps build trust and influence…
I actually use the acronym V.I.T.A.L. Visibility, influence, trust, advocacy and leadership. And brands need those pillars to be successful, over the top of successful today. So if we can help brands use content to become more visible, to get out on people’s radar, et cetera. And I think that’s probably one of the greatest challenges every company faces now, is just to cut through. It’s just so hard. Influence. If you can’t influence people’s behaviour and that side of things, then you’re on a hiding to nothing. Trust is obviously the currency of today and critical and the trust and reputation is where PR really comes to the fore. Advocacy, building advocates and supporters, enthusiasts for your brand and what you do and what you stand for.
And leadership, taking the leadership positioning, I think allows you to start differentiating your brand from the rest, from your competitors. So if you can use content that strategically underpins those pillars, then that’s to me, content marketing for PR. Now we’ll say that obviously you’ll need more heft in different pillars, depending on your goals. So if you’re obviously a financial services company that’s had a bit of a wreckage of a reputation, then you’re going to put more emphasis on trust. So what does that look like? Does it mean well, okay, using content to be more transparent, taking people behind the scenes, shining the spotlight on the leadership team, more so that side of things. So that’s the strategic part of it.
Paul Sutton: Okay. With the inbound side of it then, do you think the inbound marketers are measuring things in a slightly different way or do they have slightly different goals which are more sales led? I mean, is that how you define the difference?
Trevor Young: I do. I mean, obviously inbound is very sales driven, it’s very process driven. It’s get someone’s email and have content and calls to action at certain parts of the journey. And it’s not right for every company obviously, but those where there’s a bit of a convoluted ongoing sales journey, or path to purchase, that’s when that becomes very important. And that’s probably as much around business to business, I think you’ll probably find there as well.
And I think that they’ve got some probably simple measures to put in place along in, I’m using air quotes, the sales funnel. Whereas I guess when you look at if you’re of the belief, and this is where it comes down to philosophy, if more people trust us and we have a strong reputation in the marketplace and in turn that drives leads and sales or whatever it is you’re trying to achieve. Again, it’s not always about leads and sales if you’re not a business. Then that’s a different way of looking at it. And it’s a little bit harder to measure, but you can still put measures in place. They just some of those big ticket items are just macro things. They were just a little bit harder to measure. But then all the other things that an inbound marketer will look at, you can still measure them.
Paul Sutton: So you mentioned sales funnels there. What do you make a sales funnel? Do you believe in the function of a sales funnel? Because, I mean, my own opinion is that sales funnels perhaps don’t really work anymore because of the way that we behave and interact with all of this different stuff we’re exposed to across everywhere. Everywhere you go, there’s something. Do you believe in sales funnels?
Trevor Young: I guess when you look at it and you sort of break it down, yeah, they make sense. I think they make sense, but I don’t think it’s that simple and linear anymore. I think it’s very convoluted. We know that other people’s opinions matter more now than what a company says. So even if you’re doing good stuff and giving good content and really helping people along the journey, that’s terrific. No one ever went wrong, being useful and helpful. So there’s no sort of dramas on that respect.
But when we do know that… You know yourself. When you get a tip from a mate or word of mouth or you read someone who influences you that might be a podcaster or a journalist or whatever, and they’re writing something and they’re sort of that third implied, third party endorsement or that word of mouth from friends, connections, that holds weight today, in an era when we don’t trust businesses and brands and all sorts of stuff. So I just think that, yes, I’m not dismissing it, I’m not saying the sales funnels dead, but I just think it’s, is it losing relevance? Potentially.
And I just think there’s more to it. I think we just look at things in too much of a one dimensional way when it’s not. It’s multidimensional and it’s messy and I think we’ve just got to accept that. And when we look at content from an inbound perspective, if everyone’s chasing the same audience and they’ve done the persona work, which is fine, this is all the stuff you’ve got to do, but you’re answering those people’s questions. Again, no one ever went wrong, being useful and helpful. But a lot of that content now, to me is starting to look the same. If you look in various industries, there’s a lot of stuff that’s looking the same.
The content marketing for PR, I believe can help differentiate your brand, stand out a bit more, can make you look a little different than just churning out the same stuff. It doesn’t mean you don’t answer people’s questions by any means, not saying that, but it just means we add more dimension of content. So I’ve developed this four circle Venn diagram if that’s the… That’s how it looks. I call it my content universe, and there’s the four dimensions and one is the utility based content, the leadership content, the corporate content, and then promotional content. So the utility stuff is that educational, really good stuff. What’s a pain point and need that people have? What is the an informational gap they’ve got? And you answer those questions and you do all that with content, terrific stuff. And that’s probably where in bound sits nicely.
Then you get leadership content, which is a little bit more, okay, well, you’re not answering people’s questions. You’re actually probably poking them in the eye a little bit, metaphorically. You might be changing the way people think about a topic or an issue through your ideas. And so classic example is Seth Godin set’s not sitting back waiting to do a how to article or listicle to address a pain point. He’s literally making you think about certain topics. His marketing school is all around those pain points, but his content is not. And I call that classic leadership. And when you look at a lot of companies now, they’re now starting to, they take that bigger picture view on things. Patagonia is mentioned often, around all things sustainability in the environment. Well, to me is leadership content and it locks back to what they’re all about as a brand.
So there’s that leadership stuff, which is big end territory. The Edelman Trust Barometer, a classic example, again. Looking at trust and being the leader in that space of that conversation. And so that’s leadership content. But corporate content, having been in PR for a long time yourself, Paul, you realise that the press releases aren’t going to go away anytime soon. And I always say, well, you’re not going to change that. That’ll just get them done and put out there. But what else can you do about all your news that’s coming through the organisation? And I think GE and companies like this do it really well, is how can you make that news interesting? So you get someone, a lot of companies say, “Oh, we’ve just won this big award and aren’t we great?” And bang their chest, which no one’s interested in.
Or we’ve got this new product. Say we’ve got this new product and they… Lights and bells and whistles and all of that. And I get it. I understand. It’s all about them at that point. But what about doing interviews with the product designer or taking people on the journey of how it was designed or why we did it and take people behind the scenes to do that. And that’s where I think, if you’ve won a big award, okay that’s fine. Put it out, matter of record. But then why not do something about the things that we’ve learned from winning this award to get to this position? And that allows you to tell a story. So that again, leadership content and that what I’ve termed corporate content is right in the PR remit.
And that’s what we’re good at doing. The overlap with inbound is probably more on the utility. And then there’s promotional content. And I add that in because it’s okay to promote your services, ask for the sale, call to action, sign up here, do this. But if that’s all you do, then obviously you’ll drive people away or they’ll ignore you all together. And there’s even interesting ways to be able to do promotional content that is promotional but still interesting and relevant to your audience. So that’s probably the nuance of cross content marketing for PR versus inbound. So again, who are you? What are you doing? What are your goals? What are you trying to achieve? What are your resources? All of that sort of stuff.
Paul Sutton: Yeah. It’s interesting that the different types of content I think come into it as well because you referenced there trying to sort of stay ahead of what every one else is doing with content because I totally agree with you. There’s so much same stuff out there that you see time and time again. And even from a personal perspective, one of the reasons I started this podcast about a year and a half ago now was because I’d been blogging like you have for a decade, 10 years or so, and I just wanted to do something a bit different that maybe was something different to what other people were doing.
In my case that became a different content form, but that effectively is what you’re talking about is doing something that keeps you ahead of everything else out there. When you talk about the leadership content as well, and you said about sort of poking people a bit, again, that’s my personal style to do that. Do you think a lot of companies are afraid of making too much of a fuss around things? I mean, it’s just changing a bit with sort of cause-based marketing now. But a lot of companies from my perspective seem to be still nervous about making too much noise about an issue in case it turns people away from them. Do you think that’s generally true?
Trevor Young: I do. I think we’ve got the cause side of things or the social issues, which I know you speak about often as well. There’s that side of things, but then there’s issues pertaining to an industry that you operate in. And in your case it might be… Well, you tackle a lot of them, but it might be AI and voice for example and where that’s heading. Or the future of PR and communications and that’s the big ticket issue that you’ve going to flag in the ground on.
And then there are sub-issues in and around that and then you become known for that over a period of time. That’s probably what I’m talking about more on the leadership side of things. Yeah. And that not as scary for a lot of companies because they know that they need to stand up and they’ve got a belief and that’ll probably come from the leaders of the organisation.
Paul Sutton: So looking a bit broader then, when it comes to PR and communications, take on board your own about content marketing and everything that’s going on in the world, what do you think is the future for the PR industry? And I know this is a very big question, but I’m going to throw it at you anyway.
Trevor Young: Well, like a lot of the things you talk about, I mean, there are things coming in from all angles. Well, apart from the blurring of the lines between advertising, PR, SEO, all of that sort of stuff. I think that’s the biggest challenge that everyone’s got is to find their place in the world and what that means and then going forward. So until you get that sort of settled, I think you’re just clutching at straws. But I think that there’s no doubt that the… I’ve been sort of, probably haven’t done as much research in the AI stuff, but I’m starting to use tools where AI is involved. And I think that to me it’s not a scary thing. To me it allows us to get rid of the activities that bog us down so we can be a bit smarter and create better stories and be more strategic and put more time in thinking rather than just doing all the time.
I’m not so sure that AI is great for story. I still think humans and emotion and storytelling is probably still good for actual human beings. But who knows where that’s going to end up? There are certain things. I’m a big believer and Mark Schaefer has written a terrific book called Marketing Rebellion and I’m just a massive believer, as he is, in the whole swing to humanity back to human because we’re not changing as people in that regard. We still want emotional connection and we’re still interested in the things that turn us on and light us up. And we want to we want to deal with people and we want to hear stories and that side of things. I just think there’s going to be a swing back to, a little bit back to the future.
I’m speaking at a future of social media conference at a conference tomorrow and that’s going to be the theme I explore and just really interested. There’s going to be 90 social media people there, Social media managers and stuff and I’m really interested to get their feedback on how much humanity is in their organisation and what they do on social media. So on a softer side, I think that there’s room to go back to that because that’s what we want as people and that’s what resonates.
And when you see brands doing really good stuff, sure you got the great campaigns and we all love that sexy campaign, but it comes and goes and we focus on that. And I love all that stuff. And I’m probably more of the mindset what happens in between those campaigns? What we do with PR and owned earned and social media and build that base of the marketing communications pyramid that goes for the 365 days of the year. And how can we make ourselves more open, more transparent? How can we connect more deeply with the people who matter most to us as a company or an organisation?
Paul Sutton: I totally agree with that. I fundamentally have agreed for a long time that big campaigns, yes, they look great and I know I’m a fan of some of the creative stuff as well, but I have for a long time talked to my clients about how it’s the drip feed and the little nudges. That’s what social media, especially, and content can do well is the little nudges towards eventually making a purchase or an inquiry or whatever it is you want people to do. But that big campaign, yes, it creates a splash and yes, it might create some response out the back, but it’s the little nudges that matter to me and I’ve talked in that way for a long time.
Trevor Young: And a critical part of that, Paul, is that a lot of that, if you build that base and you have that strength from that V.I.T.A.L. Visibility and influence and people trust you and all of that sort of stuff, then if you’ve got that building that ongoing. And it’s like the old McDonald’s Goodwill, Bank of Goodwill, they’ve always done for decades. Let’s build that Bank of Goodwill in the community again and again and again, so when the brown stuff hits the fan, we lose a bit of goodwill but that we’re not coming from scratch again.
And I think that that way of thinking still works today. And what it does do, because it gives you that visibility and people already maybe know, like and trust you potentially, then it’ll make your campaigns and your promotional messages work harder because people would have already heard of you and maybe actually have an affinity with your brand. And so it’s about making the investment in advertising and creative campaigns, whatever they look like and whoever does them, it makes them work that much harder.
Paul Sutton: I would totally agree with that. Do you think there is a bit of I mean, in the UK certainly there, there is a lot of talk about the reputation of the PR industry and it goes in this big cycle of discussion all the time about why we can’t do our own PR and that sort of stuff. Do you think that comes from a place of, as you talked about, that the PR underpinning the sales campaigns and it’s the sales campaigns that get in the credit, but the goodwill has been built by more, I don’t know, softer tactics, is that where your kind of coming from with that?
Trevor Young: I am indeed. I mean, I know that it’s harder to measure and that’s probably why it cops a bit. I mean, again, there are ways to measure everything somewhere along the line. But again, those macro things about trust and reputation, you can measure them, but you just need deep pockets because you’ve got to do benchmark research and go back six to eight months and do another dip.
And that’s expensive stuff. There are good new tools coming out for research, but at this stage it’s still an expensive thing. So I’m not saying it can’t be measured. It can, it’s just expensive and not necessarily every company’s going to fork out for it. But it’s definitely one of those things where you, when you see it done well, when you see an organisation that really has a what I’d call a PR mindset, they’re just so different than anyone else because they often don’t have to advertise much.
That’s the beauty. Because they’re already known and trusted. And I’m not sure if you know, Andy Green.
Paul Sutton: Yes, I do. Yeah.
Trevor Young: So Andy has co-authored a white paper called the Dublin Conversations about trying to redefine and re-energise public relations. And we’ve had a couple of really good chats on and it’s been really timely and I’ve mentioned it in the book because it’s this whole notion of yes, PR isn’t great, the industry is not great at promoting itself necessarily because it is, there is a bit of disjointedness about it. And we all know that and we struggle with it sometimes. And that’s only getting harder as everything starts blending together. And I guess when if you’re writing a book with the title, Content Marketing for PR, you’ve then got to say what PR isn’t firstly . I bang that one on the head pretty quick.
And then what PR is and then look at what content is and then try and meld the two together. So I’ve had to just go through that often. And I love what Andy is talking about is that it’s around being known, liked, trusted, front of mind and talked about which is social proof. And they’re right. It’s kind of a bit like the V.I.T.A.L. thing but it sits on its own. If people know you, they like you and Andy said in a conversation with me once, “I’ve never had a brief, I’ve been in this industry for so long, I’ve never had a brief where someone said get more people to like us.”
So know, like, trust, which we hear ad nauseum, but I think the front of mind is incredibly important and the talking about us, that’s probably where traditional PR has been, is using the media and influences and that side of things to get that third party endorsement.
Paul Sutton: Okay. Just to finish off then. A question that I’m going to ask a lot of people in this series of the podcast because it’s something that is playing on my mind endlessly. What do you think, bearing in mind everything that’s happening with social media networks themselves, what do you think the future of social media is and how is that going to affect communications over the next or three years, do you think?
Trevor Young: Gosh, pulling out the big gun there. Given that I’m doing this talk tomorrow about the future of social media, but purporting not to actually have the answer. It’s interesting. As we know, there’s the sort of the dark social media that we know is going on and that’s hard to track. I think the rise of groups that everything I’m seeing out there in research is that people are gravitating to groups and if it’s not on Facebook, then it’s through other sort of proprietary networks that. Might Networks is another one that’s creates those networks that people can build.
That makes a lot of sense to me because people still want to have a deeper connection, but they don’t want the noise and they want a bit of safety. And I think that we’re seeing brands, smart brands, really being able to build those groups and have a deeper connection with less people rather than try and be all things to all people across everything.
Are they going away? I don’t think they’re going away. I’m loving where Twitter is at the moment. As a platform, I think it’s a wonderful platform. It’s still noisy one way. I’m feeling there’s a bit of a swing back to conversation, but not like the heady days. But I think it’s still there. And the research shows that people who are on it are on it a lot. They’re just lurking. Which is an interesting thing. There’s more lurkers than people doing the content whereas it never used to be like that. So there’s some interesting things happening with Twitter in the background. Facebook obviously have to, it’s crazy if they don’t go over compensate for all their misgivings or whatever it is. If they go 20% one way they really need to go 120% that way to fix it and over compensate and over fix things and become over transparent.
So I don’t know if they’ve got the where with all to do that, but that’s to me-
Paul Sutton: I don’t think they’ve got the will to do it, to be honest.
Trevor Young: Well, if they don’t, they’ll be told to do it. I think at some point they’ll probably …
Paul Sutton: Yes. I agree.
Trevor Young: Probably be broken by it’s … it’s hard to see. Unless they really take it on board and go nuts on it and really do it in a genuine way to really try and sort things out and to be a lot more open and transparent in what they’re doing, then they probably will get broken up at some point you would imagine. Yeah. And I mean, I think LinkedIn’s going from strength to strength. I think that it’s a wonderful platform at the moment and I get a lot of great conversation around it, but of course it’s going to get to a point where, okay, let’s put the brakes on the organic.
And so we’ve got to see more of that. I can’t see that not happening. And obviously Instagram, already there’s talk that the brakes are on it, on the organic reach and it’ll become paid. So therefore the future is… I mean, I’m working with a guy very closely who does our paid stuff and that’s all he does. He’s neck deep in it. And yes, it’s mainly Facebook, a little bit of Insta, but that’s a skill that if you’re good at that and the data and you can understand that side of things, and you want to do it more so, I think that that’s a good place to be. And because there’s no doubt that it’s all going to be very much paid except for the chosen few who know how to build and create, really invest in the great content and will probably do it organically with a little bit of help with paid.
Paul Sutton: Yeah, I agree with you. It’s the inquiry I get most nowadays other than strategy work is paid, and like you said, a lot of it is on Facebook. But then, I mean it’s across Google and Instagram and everywhere else as well. But yeah, I agree with you.
Trevor Young: I’m seeing LinkedIn go that way at some point.
Paul Sutton: Yeah, I agree. It has to. It has to. Yeah. Fantastic. Okay, well we’re about out of time, so thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been really interesting talking about this. Good luck with the book.
Trevor Young: Thank you, Paul.
Paul Sutton: Do you just want to tell people where they can find you and where they can get hold of the book?
Trevor Young: Yeah. Probably the easiest I’ve lucky enough to snag the URL. So contentmarketingforpr.com.
Paul Sutton: Lovely. That’s an easy one, isn’t it? Good for you for getting that.
Trevor Young: That’s part of it, if you don’t get the URL, you then change your mind on the book.
Paul Sutton: Lovely. Okay. Well, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much, Trevor.
Trevor Young: Thanks, Paul.
Paul Sutton: You can subscribe to Digital Download on iTunes, Google Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. And if you’ve got any ideas for future topics you’d like to see covered or people you’d like to hear from, contact me on Twitter where I’m @thePaulSutton. Thank you for listening.